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Christians and sin...... - Printable Version

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Christians and sin...... - Alabuckeye - 02-12-2019

So, this subject came up on the old board in questions/discussion between NPB, UNC and myself over the subject of whether Christians are still sinners post conversion.  

I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

CAN Christians sin?  Of course.  Free will is not removed from a Christian and their actions are their own......This is evidenced by Demas, the NT follower of Christ for a time, who ultimately left the Way of Christ and went back because "he loved the world"  II Timothy 4:10.  But notice that he LEFT his faith.  He didn't stay in Christ, a Christian, he turned his back on it.

Romans 6:1 says "What shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that Grace(spoken of in Romans 5) may abound?  God forbid!"  Christians do not have to sin.  In fact, Ephesians 5 and other passages makes it clear that active practice of sin separates from God.  That would include separating a Christian, who was saved, from God.

RE: Christians and sin...... - TakeThePoints - 02-12-2019

Are you making overall generalizations?

RE: Christians and sin...... - zigbee - 02-12-2019

Interesting....

RE: Christians and sin...... - Hightop77 - 02-12-2019

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:  “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.  I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’  But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

RE: Christians and sin...... - K9Buck - 02-12-2019

(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: So, this subject came up on the old board in questions/discussion between NPB, UNC and myself over the subject of whether Christians are still sinners post conversion.  

I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

CAN Christians sin?  Of course.  Free will is not removed from a Christian and their actions are their own......This is evidenced by Demas, the NT follower of Christ for a time, who ultimately left the Way of Christ and went back because "he loved the world"  II Timothy 4:10.  But notice that he LEFT his faith.  He didn't stay in Christ, a Christian, he turned his back on it.

Romans 6:1 says "What shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that Grace(spoken of in Romans 5) may abound?  God forbid!"  Christians do not have to sin.  In fact, Ephesians 5 and other passages makes it clear that active practice of sin separates from God.  That would include separating a Christian, who was saved, from God.

Many spend their whole lives trying to acquire worldly goods, power, wealth, good health, etc.  In other words, they want it all.  Who doesn't?  I certainly do!  Here's the kicker.  If we'll just accept Jesus as our savior and attempt to follow his teachings, we'll have ALL of the aforementioned and much, much more.

RE: Christians and sin...... - unc4corners - 02-12-2019

Been working. I'll respond when I get some sit down time...

RE: Christians and sin...... - lrrps21 - 02-12-2019

(02-12-2019, 06:56 PM)K9Buck Wrote:
(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: So, this subject came up on the old board in questions/discussion between NPB, UNC and myself over the subject of whether Christians are still sinners post conversion.  

I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

CAN Christians sin?  Of course.  Free will is not removed from a Christian and their actions are their own......This is evidenced by Demas, the NT follower of Christ for a time, who ultimately left the Way of Christ and went back because "he loved the world"  II Timothy 4:10.  But notice that he LEFT his faith.  He didn't stay in Christ, a Christian, he turned his back on it.

Romans 6:1 says "What shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that Grace(spoken of in Romans 5) may abound?  God forbid!"  Christians do not have to sin.  In fact, Ephesians 5 and other passages makes it clear that active practice of sin separates from God.  That would include separating a Christian, who was saved, from God.

Many spend their whole lives trying to acquire worldly goods, power, wealth, good health, etc.  In other words, they want it all.  Who doesn't?  I certainly do!  Here's the kicker.  If we'll just accept Jesus as our savior and attempt to follow his teachings, we'll have ALL of the aforementioned and much, much more.

I find your argument strewn with gaping defects in logic...

RE: Christians and sin...... - bucklam66 - 02-13-2019

If Cyrus never lived or Ögedei isn't an alcoholic then maybe these questions wouldn't matter

RE: Christians and sin...... - Alabuckeye - 02-13-2019

(02-12-2019, 06:56 PM)K9Buck Wrote:
(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: So, this subject came up on the old board in questions/discussion between NPB, UNC and myself over the subject of whether Christians are still sinners post conversion.  

I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

CAN Christians sin?  Of course.  Free will is not removed from a Christian and their actions are their own......This is evidenced by Demas, the NT follower of Christ for a time, who ultimately left the Way of Christ and went back because "he loved the world"  II Timothy 4:10.  But notice that he LEFT his faith.  He didn't stay in Christ, a Christian, he turned his back on it.

Romans 6:1 says "What shall we say then, shall we continue to sin that Grace(spoken of in Romans 5) may abound?  God forbid!"  Christians do not have to sin.  In fact, Ephesians 5 and other passages makes it clear that active practice of sin separates from God.  That would include separating a Christian, who was saved, from God.

Many spend their whole lives trying to acquire worldly goods, power, wealth, good health, etc.  In other words, they want it all.  Who doesn't?  I certainly do!  Here's the kicker.  If we'll just accept Jesus as our savior and attempt to follow his teachings, we'll have ALL of the aforementioned and much, much more.

Jesus, and God's Word never promises any of those things.  In fact, Jesus says "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” In John 16.....

But the statement is exactly correct.  I've had a peace that passes all understanding since coming to Christ.

RE: Christians and sin...... - Hightop77 - 02-13-2019

(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

The reference is to justification and forgiveness of sin.  Christians are still sinners and even the Apostle Paul admitted he was.  Justification is a declaration, not a miraculous soul cleansing.  The sin nature remains until death.

RE: Christians and sin...... - Alabuckeye - 02-13-2019

(02-13-2019, 08:15 AM)Hightop77 Wrote:
(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

The reference is to justification and forgiveness of sin.  Christians are still sinners and even the Apostle Paul admitted he was.  Justification is a declaration, not a miraculous soul cleansing.  The sin nature remains until death.

I agree, we are cleansed from all sin in the process of justification.  But to say that Christ is able to cleanse us from all sin, but then is not able to keep us from an active life of sin denies His power.  Justification is most certainly a miraculous soul cleansing.  II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."  THAT is miraculous!

What is your Biblical basis for saying that the sin nature must remain till death?

RE: Christians and sin...... - Hightop77 - 02-13-2019

(02-13-2019, 08:21 AM)Alabuckeye Wrote:
(02-13-2019, 08:15 AM)Hightop77 Wrote:
(02-12-2019, 04:36 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I posited that they are not still sinners, that God's grace cleanses them from all sin(I John 1:7- But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.)

The reference is to justification and forgiveness of sin.  Christians are still sinners and even the Apostle Paul admitted he was.  Justification is a declaration, not a miraculous soul cleansing.  The sin nature remains until death.

I agree, we are cleansed from all sin in the process of justification.  But to say that Christ is able to cleanse us from all sin, but then is not able to keep us from an active life of sin denies His power.  Justification is most certainly a miraculous soul cleansing.  II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."  THAT is miraculous!

What is your Biblical basis for saying that the sin nature must remain till death?

We are declared righteous, not made righteous in justification.

RE: Christians and sin...... - cincydawg - 02-13-2019

My guess is different people have differing interpretations on this topic, which should be fine.

RE: Christians and sin...... - Alabuckeye - 02-13-2019

(02-13-2019, 08:29 AM)cincydawg Wrote: My guess is different people have differing interpretations on this topic, which should be fine.

by and large, definitely.  UNC, NPB and I had started the conversation in the old board and they had asked me some questions because I obviously am not a 'descendant' of Calvin, I'm of Wesleyan-Arminian descent.  We can have fellowship without total agreement.

I love the discussion.

RE: Christians and sin...... - Alabuckeye - 02-13-2019

HT, have you read your fellow Lutheran, Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book "The Cost of Discipleship"?

He makes a strong Biblical argument for exactly what I'm saying. In his words, any grace that only saves you, but does not effect a deep change in your life, behaviors/reactions/choices, is a 'cheap grace' to use his words. God doesn't offer 'cheap grace', but very costly grace, at the expense of His Son, and as a result costs us deeply, creating deep change in us.