(02-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:28 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:18 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:17 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:13 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Evidence of God's existence is all around
If you're already a believer, yes.
but sin prevents the eyes from seeing.Â
There are no excuses as Paul writes.
Paul may be slightly biased and have an agenda.
Nope. The evidence is there according to God but people will not believe it. Paul does indeed have an agenda.
God says that there's evidence of God everywhere?
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (Romans 1:19-23).
The Bible isn't a valid reference for anyone who doesn't already believe in the Christian God.
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(02-14-2019, 11:45 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:28 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:18 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Nope. The evidence is there according to God but people will not believe it. Paul does indeed have an agenda.
God says that there's evidence of God everywhere?
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (Romans 1:19-23).
The Bible isn't a valid reference for anyone who doesn't already believe in the Christian God.
Of course.
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(02-14-2019, 10:48 AM)cincydawg Wrote: (02-14-2019, 10:39 AM)Brutus Buckeye Wrote: Plenty of civilizations have been wiped out since the NT.
Yes, by the actions of Man, not some natural calamity like a flood or fire and brimstone. I made that point rather clearly.
By the acts of men inspired by God. God has a hand in all things. He didn't give the Nazis the victory. The were wicked and got destroyed. In the Dark ages the most wicked Christians had to be purged from the Church. Thus the Crusades. Once the most wicked had been wiped out, the tables were turned and God allowed the righteous Christians to carry on going forward.
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(02-14-2019, 11:40 AM)cincydawg Wrote: There is a logical basis for a creator, but the nature of that creator is far from clear on the basis of logic and observation.
It could logically be the god of Spinoza. Â He or she need not be specifically the Christian view of God.
And this minor thing about billions of humans with no chance to be Saved is a rather significant issue for me.
That's the point of what Paul is saying. The condemnation is universal and justified and some will be saved by grace through the cross and the Messiah through faith.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."
(02-14-2019, 11:47 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:45 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:28 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:18 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Nope. The evidence is there according to God but people will not believe it. Paul does indeed have an agenda.
God says that there's evidence of God everywhere?
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (Romans 1:19-23).
The Bible isn't a valid reference for anyone who doesn't already believe in the Christian God.
Of course.
With that understanding, why would people, pre-Jesus and the disciples, have any reason to believe in the Christian God who was wiping them out for not believing in him?
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The most wicked Christians seemed to have survived into more modern times like with the Inquisition. The Crusades of course were a strategic failure of rather epic proportions after an initial tactical victory. Islam almost conquered Europe. The natives in the Americas were almost wiped out by the Spanish et al. That doesn't strike me as being very "Christian".
Human generated catastrophes have continued unabated throughout these times. To claim somehow that God is now letting good Christians carry on is not very inspiring to me given the wars we've had in recent memory.
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(02-14-2019, 11:38 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:34 AM)unc4corners Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:23 AM)cincydawg Wrote: I think condemning millions and billions of humans who had no chance at salvation is unjust and immoral. First of all God judges those at the end of times.Â
It's not clearly stated how God judges people like babies that die and young children. We tend to believe that until they reach the age of knowing right from wrong they will be in Heaven. Â
Again, you have no understanding of the God I know if you feel He is unjust and immoral.
unc, I know we are not on the same page with this, but the Bible seems to say all of humanity is condemned not merely because of specific sinful acts but because they are inherently sinful from the moment they are conceived. There is no magic age of accountability although as humans we have a hard time accepting God's condemnation of children and the mentally ill. But there seems to be no wiggle room. The Bible only addresses the issue of babies that die.
2 Samuel 12:33 states:  23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.â€
This was David's child with Bathsheba when he had an affair with her while her husband was at war and eventually David ordered his death. Â
God did not allow their baby to live as punishment for their sin. Â
David obviously knows he will see this child again when he says "Can I bring him back? I will go to him (at David's death), but he will not return to me (at this present life).
This gives parents "hope" that their lost child will be in Heaven one day. Surely the same God will allow the mentally ill who doesn't comprehend sin and salvation will do the same.
There are not scriptures in the Bible to cover the mentally ill but the one about David and his son is covered. The Bible doesn't have to say it 100's of times in scripture. One is sufficient.
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(02-14-2019, 11:50 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:47 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:45 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:28 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: God says that there's evidence of God everywhere?
Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (Romans 1:19-23).
The Bible isn't a valid reference for anyone who doesn't already believe in the Christian God.
Of course.
With that understanding, why would people, pre-Jesus and the disciples, have any reason to believe in the Christian God who was wiping them out for not believing in him?
The statement about the evidence of God being there is timeless and is valid for the period of time prior to Jesus.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."
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(02-14-2019, 11:53 AM)cincydawg Wrote: The most wicked Christians seemed to have survived into more modern times like with the Inquisition. Â The Crusades of course were a strategic failure of rather epic proportions after an initial tactical victory. Â Islam almost conquered Europe. Â The natives in the Americas were almost wiped out by the Spanish et al. Â That doesn't strike me as being very "Christian".
Human generated catastrophes have continued unabated throughout these times. Â To claim somehow that God is now letting good Christians carry on is not very inspiring to me given the wars we've had in recent memory.
The Christians were mostly wicked. The Lord inspired the Islamic branch of the family of Abraham to nearly wipe them out in order to purge the wicked from their ranks. Once that was accomplished the Muslims were defeated.Â
There are many wicked Christians today, and the will soon be put in their own place during the next destruction event.
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What evidence is there that God is the Christian God?
As opposed to any other type?
(02-14-2019, 11:56 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:50 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:47 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:45 AM)P1tchblack Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: Because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures (Romans 1:19-23).
The Bible isn't a valid reference for anyone who doesn't already believe in the Christian God.
Of course.
With that understanding, why would people, pre-Jesus and the disciples, have any reason to believe in the Christian God who was wiping them out for not believing in him?
The statement about the evidence of God being there is timeless and is valid for the period of time prior to Jesus.
According to the bible and people who already believe in God. For the people who lived pre-Jesus, what was this evidence that they missed that has now resulted in billions being condemned to eternal damnation?
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(02-14-2019, 11:53 AM)unc4corners Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:38 AM)Hightop77 Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:34 AM)unc4corners Wrote: (02-14-2019, 11:23 AM)cincydawg Wrote: I think condemning millions and billions of humans who had no chance at salvation is unjust and immoral. First of all God judges those at the end of times.Â
It's not clearly stated how God judges people like babies that die and young children. We tend to believe that until they reach the age of knowing right from wrong they will be in Heaven. Â
Again, you have no understanding of the God I know if you feel He is unjust and immoral.
unc, I know we are not on the same page with this, but the Bible seems to say all of humanity is condemned not merely because of specific sinful acts but because they are inherently sinful from the moment they are conceived. There is no magic age of accountability although as humans we have a hard time accepting God's condemnation of children and the mentally ill. But there seems to be no wiggle room. The Bible only addresses the issue of babies that die.
2 Samuel 12:33 states:  23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.â€
This was David's child with Bathsheba when he had an affair with her while her husband was at war and eventually David ordered his death. Â
God did not allow their baby to live as punishment for their sin. Â
David obviously knows he will see this child again when he says "Can I bring him back? I will go to him (at David's death), but he will not return to me (at this present life).
This gives parents "hope" that their lost child will be in Heaven one day. Surely the same God will allow the mentally ill who doesn't comprehend sin and salvation will do the same.
There are not scriptures in the Bible to cover the mentally ill but the one about David and his son is covered. The Bible doesn't have to say it 100's of times in scripture. One is sufficient.
I think there is reason to assume that baby was included in God's covenant. That still doesn't deter from the universal condemnation of humanity that Paul writes about. Certainly the wrath of God was openly displayed in the Old Testament with no discrimination about age. God's people of the OT destroyed everyone when ordered to by God, including infants and children.
"Hightop can reduce an entire message board of men to mudsharks. It's actually pretty funny to watch."
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