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1 Samuel 23:10-13Â
10 Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. 11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.â€
And the Lord said, “He will come down.â€
12 Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?â€
And the Lord said, “They will deliver you.â€
13 So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition.
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David asks God if Saul will come down into the city, and if the people will deliver David to Saul. God answers that Yes Saul will come, and Yes the people will turn David and his men over to him. So David and his men then leave the city, and neither thing happens. After God said they would.
So does this scripture mean God lied to David? Does it obliterate the belief that every step is predestined? Does this mean that God sees the infinite outcomes of every decision we could make, and we have the ablity to change those circumstances by our decisions? Is this scripture proof of why we should and do pray and ask the Father about situations?
Thoughts?
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05-10-2019, 05:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2019, 05:09 AM by computerbuck.)
(05-10-2019, 03:20 AM)Orbit1 Wrote: 1 Samuel 23:10-13Â
10 Then David said, “O Lord God of Israel, Your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. 11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.â€
And the Lord said, “He will come down.â€
12 Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?â€
And the Lord said, “They will deliver you.â€
13 So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition.
--------
David asks God if Saul will come down into the city, and if the people will deliver David to Saul. God answers that Yes Saul will come, and Yes the people will turn David and his men over to him. So David and his men then leave the city, and neither thing happens. After God said they would.
So does this scripture mean God lied to David? Does it obliterate the belief that every step is predestined? Does this mean that God sees the infinite outcomes of every decision we could make, and we have the ablity to change those circumstances by our decisions? Is this scripture proof of why we should and do pray and ask the Father about situations?
Thoughts?
Verse 11-12
In these verses we find the following questions and answers: - David said, Will Saul come down to Keilah? And the Lord said, He will come down. Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. In this short history we find an ample proof that there is such a thing as contingency in human affairs; that is, God has poised many things between a possibility of being and not being, leaving it to the will of the creature to turn the scale. In the above answers of the Lord the following conditions were evidently implied: - If thou continue in Keilah, Saul will certainly come down; and If Saul come down, the men of Keilah will deliver thee into his hands. Now though the text positively asserts that Saul would come to Keilah, yet he did not come; and that the men of Keilah would deliver David into his hand, yet David was not thus delivered to him. And why? Because David left Keilah; but had he stayed, Saul would have come down, and the men of Keilah would have betrayed David. We may observe from this that, however positive a declaration of God may appear that refers to any thing in which man is to be employed, the prediction is not intended to suspend or destroy free agency, but always comprehends in it some particular condition.
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Yes. I know what commentaries say. Just wondered what people thought about it.
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"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If God abandoned his only son...
Heck, David - a man after God's own heart - sent one of his captains to the front line to be killed, so he could justify 'boinking' his wife.
Cool religion.
DC is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is basic voter stupidity and economic ignorance.
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I do not believe that predestination is factual, so I don't believe that every step man takes is predestined, thus that interpretation of this story(God lied) is not correct.
God is sovereign. But the Bible makes it clear that God, in creation, limited his sovereignty in giving man a free will. Adam sinned(used his free will to choose against God). Did God make him sin? Of course not, the Bible makes it clear that is not possible.....Did God want him to sin? Again, no. God clearly wants relationship with man, which requires redemption and clear standing with God.
So, where does that leave us? God knows the potential outcomes of choices. God knows what is best for us. If we will allow, God gives His wisdom to us to 'make our paths straight' as Proverbs speaks......which will keep us from sin, keep us in relationship with God and will make our lives a whole lot better. But many people do not submit to God, do not act in humility before Him. And reap the consequences.
So, David asks "What if I do this.....will that happen?" And God says "Yes, it will happen".....so David does something different.
As far as David, LRRPY.....read Psalm 51.....which is David's lament after doing exactly what you said he did. Read the story of God sending Nathan to confront David about his sin.......and the consequences that God sends to David. Let's not act like it happened and there was no adverse reaction.
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It happened nonetheless. That's my point.
DC is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is basic voter stupidity and economic ignorance.
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(05-10-2019, 12:23 PM)lrrps21 Wrote: It happened nonetheless. That's my point.
Sure, it happened, the Bible spells it out. Â It also spells out the horrible consequences that came with the sinful behavior.
Brutus Buckeye
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(05-10-2019, 11:36 AM)lrrps21 Wrote: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If God abandoned his only son...
Heck, David - a man after God's own heart - sent one of his captains to the front line to be killed, so he could justify 'boinking' his wife.
Cool religion.
I don't know much about mainstream protestant what have you, but in my religious training David was mostly dismissed as a wicked king, not held up on a pedestal as a righteous man.
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(05-10-2019, 11:36 AM)lrrps21 Wrote: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If God abandoned his only son...
Heck, David - a man after God's own heart - sent one of his captains to the front line to be killed, so he could justify 'boinking' his wife.
Cool religion.
He lost his son because of his sin too.
God doesn't care if worshipping him has to be "cool".
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05-10-2019, 01:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2019, 01:57 PM by unc4corners.)
(05-10-2019, 12:36 PM)Brutus Buckeye Wrote: (05-10-2019, 11:36 AM)lrrps21 Wrote: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If God abandoned his only son...
Heck, David - a man after God's own heart - sent one of his captains to the front line to be killed, so he could justify 'boinking' his wife.
Cool religion.
I don't know much about mainstream protestant what have you, but in my religious training David was mostly dismissed as a wicked king, not held up on a pedestal as a righteous man.
No sure I agree with this. Jesus was actually called the "Son of David".
God also said "David is a man after My own Heart".
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(05-10-2019, 01:56 PM)unc4corners Wrote: (05-10-2019, 12:36 PM)Brutus Buckeye Wrote: (05-10-2019, 11:36 AM)lrrps21 Wrote: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
If God abandoned his only son...
Heck, David - a man after God's own heart - sent one of his captains to the front line to be killed, so he could justify 'boinking' his wife.
Cool religion.
I don't know much about mainstream protestant what have you, but in my religious training David was mostly dismissed as a wicked king, not held up on a pedestal as a righteous man.
No sure I agree with this. Jesus was actually called the "Son of David".
God also said "David is a man after My own Heart". Yep.....Again, David recognizes his condition in Psalm 51....and pleads with God to create in him a new heart.....
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(05-10-2019, 12:16 PM)Alabuckeye Wrote: I do not believe that predestination is factual, so I don't believe that every step man takes is predestined, thus that interpretation of this story(God lied) is not correct.
God is sovereign. Â But the Bible makes it clear that God, in creation, limited his sovereignty in giving man a free will. Â Adam sinned(used his free will to choose against God). Â Did God make him sin? Â Of course not, the Bible makes it clear that is not possible.....Did God want him to sin? Â Again, no. Â God clearly wants relationship with man, which requires redemption and clear standing with God.
So, where does that leave us? Â God knows the potential outcomes of choices. Â God knows what is best for us. Â If we will allow, God gives His wisdom to us to 'make our paths straight' as Proverbs speaks......which will keep us from sin, keep us in relationship with God and will make our lives a whole lot better. Â But many people do not submit to God, do not act in humility before Him. Â And reap the consequences.
So, David asks "What if I do this.....will that happen?" Â And God says "Yes, it will happen".....so David does something different.
As far as David, LRRPY.....read Psalm 51.....which is David's lament after doing exactly what you said he did. Â Read the story of God sending Nathan to confront David about his sin.......and the consequences that God sends to David. Â Let's not act like it happened and there was no adverse reaction.
I certainly agree there is no basis for predestination, and also that God did not lie. Lol
I believe this is proof that no one is "predestined" for anything, including salvation. However God "forknows" all possiblities, but it's still our choice to make.
I mainly posted this because a while back I saw a dumb troll thread aboutÂ
"why do Christians even pray? Do we trust that God's plan is always right?"
This scripture is why we pray. So we know the mind and will of God in our circumstances, and yeah, head God's thoughts on what we should or shouldn't do. Imagine had David stayed...there would have been a very different story that unfolded, possibly even in Christ's lineage.
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